MM and blessings to everyone!

Now, unless you knew me when I was much younger, I am a very shy young woman who doesn't like posting much.  I used to, but I always feel stupid when I post things because I have limited knowledge on whatever subject I'm replying to.

However; shy or not, I'm VERY offended!

Bless this man for standing up to what he believes in; but to bash EVERYONE who calls themselves Wiccan is something completely different.

There IS a difference between Neo-Pagan and Pagan.  I personally don't believe in the Neo-Pagan movement for the reasons he explained.  I am, however; a Wiccan.  I do not believe in any sort of way that Satanism is pagan/neo-pagan/wiccan or anything of the sort.  I find it a shameful religion and have no part of it.  However, there are people who do.  

There ARE Wiccans out there who believe that yes: They are the only true way to go. Old religions have been smothered out and they are ruling supreme over all other Pagan religions. That they indeed speak for ALL of Paganism.

I'm not one of them.

In fact, hearing this sent me to tears, me having to question my own faith.  I know a lot of Pagans/Druids/Shamans/Wiccans/Witches ... the list goes on.  Most of my friends are either atheist, open- Christian (what I call tolerant Christians) or the named list above.  We have NEVER: Not one of us, been intolerant to another religion unless we KNEW that they were doing something terribly wrong in the name of that religion or not!  For example: friend of ours was smoking dope in the name of "religious" views.  Regardless if Hemp came to us for the gods to be used, there are a lot of ways to use hemp products without smoking it illegally!  Same goes with sacrificing animals.  

Now... I come from a traditional native american family here in Western Canada.  We hunt.  I've only been on a few hunting trips, and they are always for food and clothing.  Nothing more.  We will perform a "rite" with the animal we brought down, asking and thanking the god(s) for blessing us with food for the winter months, and leather to make traditional dresses and clothing.  (Which we still do.)

I understand the difference between "needing food" and "wanting to be on good terms with certain deities."  We don't consolidate with anyone who feels that is needed.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT IS RIGHT TO "PREPARE" A CHILD FOR SEXUAL EXPLOITATION BY AN ADULT BEFORE HE OR SHE IS READY!  I BELIEVE THAT SUCH ACTS HAVE NO RIGHT IN HUMAN CIVILIZATION!

I believe in the Laws of Three,
I believe in Harm none, do what you will
I believe we all have the right to live and let live
I believe that I am indeed a Pagan, a Wiccan, a Witch, and a woman with a voice.

I don't believe in Satanism
I don't believe in forcing another into my religion
I don't believe the "old blood" and "old ways" are gone
I don't believe that we have the right to force our path onto others

I want to believe that I can proudly call myself a Wiccan
I want to believe that I can exist without exile of my peers
I want to believe that I will not be shunned for the mistakes of others
I want to believe that people will believe in what I say...

I just feel outright torn that someone who I looked up to, tell me to fuck off, indirectly perhaps... but really now.  I don't believe in the things he mentioned.  I don't believe that I'm a neo-nazi, or that I call the pentagram a "Wiccan's Star" or that I consolidate pedophilia!  All of which are wrong...

Does anyone else feel this way?



[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=dCs2gwQMkXo[/youtube]

LunaMoon_Wolf.  It is a very difficult thing for ant individual to understand the complexity of the magic or neo-pagan movement.  There are very few good sources, and virtually no academic ones.  

The sexual preparation you mentioned was a part of the Frost interpretation of Gardnerian wicca, if I am not mistaken (please correct me if I am).  The Frosts have since backed away by saying they were reciting directly from traditional sources.

As the Frosts are so wellknown in the magical community, it is not surprising that people would focus on them.

Forgive my ignorance, but could you expain the difference between a wiccan, pagan, neopagan, and a witch. Each site tends to give a different definition and the way some people word it, it's like they are all intertwined. Thanx.

First we should define what Wicca, Paganism and Witchcraft mean, and the distinctions that can be drawn between them. As in the diagram to the right these categories very much overlap.

Their definitions are nebulous and often difficult to distinguish, but I will attempt a brief description, as follows:

Neo-Paganism - a whole field of New Age earth-centered belief systems, particularly venerating the gods of ancient times from any number of different cultures, and often practicing ritual magick.

Wicca - any number of Neopagan traditions particularly influenced by Gardner and the general Neopagan movement. Acknowledges in particular a God and Goddess who may appear in many different guides. Practices ceremonial magick, and in particular respects the Wiccan Rede.

Witchcraft - includes practitioners of magick not tied to any particular Neopagan trend or tradition; may venerate gods and goddesses as well as spirits and elementals. Included are Neo-Classical Witches.

Further categories of Witches
Isaac Bonewitts proposes seven categories of those who describe themselves as "witches". Like my definition they overlap, but they overlapping is far too complex to plot in a set diagram like above.

Neopagans - witchcraft and Wicca within a Neopagan and New Age religious and ceremonial tradition
Neo-Classical - witches in a Neopagan tradition practicing folk magic without the religious significance
Classical - hereditary and traditional witches in many societies, practicing folk magic and ancient pagan tradition, without heavy religious significance
Neo-Gothic - those practicing Satanism and devil-worship, inherited from the memory of mediaeval witch hysteria and in reaction to Christianity
Family Traditions - largely Classical practitioners who often did not consider themselves witches until the revival of the 1950s.  
Immigrant and Other - particularly non-European types of magic; Santeria, Vodoun and other Shamanic practices such as aboriginal American, Australian and African traditions.
Contemporary Wicca
Wicca has grown from its Gardnerian foundations to embrace a multitude of different beliefs, though all are centered on worship of the Goddess and God, and respect for the Wiccan Rede.

These different paths, or "Traditions", are merely different ways of honoring the Deities, with differing systems of magic and belief. There are perhaps as many traditions are there are Wiccans, for in fact there is no 'true' way, despite what some may believe.

Most traditions are coven-based, with systems of initiation and guidance. However, particularly due to the public interest and occult publishing boom of the 1990s, there are many Solitary Wiccans who have come to it through personal study and self-initiation.

Many covens frown upon solitaries as not being true Wiccans, not truly trained, not truly initiated, and not bound by conventions.

However in Wicca there can be no heresy, for we all have a different relationship with our deities, and perceive them

Thanks Lady Elaine,  I feel better... I still don't think it's fair that he attacked all Wiccan's like that though. Still, as a Solitary, I choose my own path and therefore shouldn't include myself in that mess.

As for what I meant... as a Witch, I make healing brews, crafts, and have a very down to earth lifestyle (as well as a modern one, I basically sleep with my laptop).

As a Pagan; I like to do things in ways I was taught.  Coming from a Cree family (Native American found in Western Canada ranging from B.C, Alberta, Saskatchewan and some parts of Manitoba) I tend to try and do a lot of the things my family has done for many many years.  Old smudging traditions using sage and sweet grass are VERY common, I wish I spoke more Cree so I could understand my uncle.  Being Pagan to me means, that you follow an old way of life. Celtic, Old English, Indian, Native American... a tradition that runs in your blood.
It can mean a lot of different things to other people.  It probably means a lot of different things to others though.

As a Wiccan; I am a Solitary.  I dedicated myself to the Craft, I follow the basic principles on how to do things.  I follow the Witches Creed, the Rede, as well as my own set of morals and codes.  I perform rituals, I believe and ask for the Lord and Lady's help when needed.

Still... maybe it's time I search for another way of doing things.  Ashame after 6 years of study and practicing, I feel completely torn by this new movement that makes me horrified.


I also want to make a small note on the Frost Tradition... regardless if they were reciting from traditional texts... would they not notice it?  Would their own morals keep them from writing and producing that book if they knew that's what they wrote?  If I see something that is immoral in my mind (but believe in the rest of the article I'm reading on) I either A) take it out or B) write a passage saying "I don't believe in this, but this is what was here!"  and I recently found that book and actually looked it up.  As easy as it is to focus on them... he's right.  

I'm not saying that the Frost tradition does that, or ever did that, but I am saying that perhaps they could have been either more careful what they wrote, or not write it at all.

Well now I don't know who that guy is, but it's just one persons opinion. He's mad at some other small group of people at what they are trying to preach. I guess I can't blame him for that. He doesn't have to go to the extreme and say that we all should be separate, we are already so different from others. Why should we fight amongst ourselves? It doesn't help the craft as a whole.  

Luna, I wouldn't let this one man upset you so hun. It's not worth your time or what you choose to believe. It sounds like you have a sound system, and if I were you I wouldn't change anything.

Don't be shy. You are sharing your own individual experience and opinions, and there is no other human being on earth who can do it for you. You are the one and only expert of your own mind, feelings, knowledge, opinions, experience, attitude etc. etc. So don't feel stupid when posting, as your opinion is interesting and you are the only person who can share it.

I'm sorry to hear that you feel offended, sad and accused of things you haven't done and would never do either. I would like to remind you of that this is just one man's opinion and his opinion seems to be rather colored of a few extreme experiences - a lot of what he says is in defense against Wiccans who ARE fundamentalists - I'm sure he doesn't think all Wiccans are alike, and if one scratches the surface a little, I'm sure he'd admit that he doesn't really have this black-and-white opinions on Neo-Pagans, Wiccans, what ever.

As you say, it is his personal opinion, and to me it's rather obvious that this specific video is an emotional reaction.

Some Wiccans ARE the way he describes. There are people who are fundamentalist, fanatic, elitist, fascist, intolerant, arrogant etc. etc. in EVERY group of people, even among the Neo-Pagans, Wiccans, Pagans, and every other group of people.

There ARE some Wiccan sects - with all the qualities sects have.

I'm sure you know this. Just because YOU are NOT the kind of person this man describes, doesn't mean he's speaking pure bull... A sectist fundamentalist Wicca is not a representant of the whole Wiccan community, neither are you.

But, if you are Wiccan, you are Neo-Pagan, as Wicca IS a Neo-Pagan religion.

Neo-Pagan stands for reconstructed Paganism, Paganism as we think it was or should be - to say it shortly. It doesn't mean a Neo-Pagan would go on thinking he/she is better than everyone else, and all the other things this man said it is. That has not much to do with religion and a lot to do with the kind of the person practicing the religion.

I am Neo-Pagan, because the Finnish Paganism was rather efficiently destroyed... My faith is not ritualistic nor "New Age -centered", but reconstructed and thus "new" - neo.
It is Paganism as it is not Abrahamic.

"ShamanShadow" is not speaking about all the Neo-Pagans, all the Wiccans etc. but the part of Neo-Paganism and Wicca that IS fundamentalist, fascist and fanatic. If you are not fundamentalist fanatic fascist Wiccan, he is not talking about you. I am not fundamentalist fanatic fascist Neo-Pagan, and I know he is not talking about me. I know also that you are not talking about me, when you say "I personally don't believe in the Neo-Pagan movement for the reasons he explained." (With other words, you agree with him fully when it comes to Neo-Pagans, so you think I am a nazi because I'm Neo-Pagan... )

Of course there's a difference between a Neo-Pagan and a Paleo-Pagan, but it's not that Neo-Pagans are fascist loonies and Paleo-Pagans not. I'm sure you understand this too.

Also, Satanism is not a "shameful religion". There are people who claim to be Satanists, who do idiotic things, and there are different schools in Satanism just as in every other religion with more than 1 practicioner. It is the "shameful" people who make their religion "shameful", and it doesn't matter which religion it is. The Wiccans ShadowShaman is referring to are "shameful" people.

You say: "We have NEVER: Not one of us, been intolerant to another religion unless we KNEW that they were doing something terribly wrong in the name of that religion or not!"

Do you really think that is a good enough reason to be intolerant? Because that's exactly the reason why some Xians are intolerant towards all non-Xians. In their minds we ARE doing something terribly wrong in the name of our religion, that is; refusing to acknowledge Jesus as our savior, judge and God.

In my mind honor-murders, female circumcision, pedofilia, homophobia and antisemitism etc. are "something terribly wrong done in the name of religion", not animal sacrifice or using drugs... but that's just me.

Some people would argue that there's no big difference in smoking marijuana or smoking tobacco.

Sacrificing animals isn't necessarily "wrong". Done correctly animals don't suffer any more than when slaughtered correctly. It is also a big part of many African Paleo-Pagan practices.

"Preparing a child for sexual exploitation" (or anyone for that matter) belongs to things that are terribly wrong in my mind. I am not familiar with Frosts or their "Good Witch's Bible", so I won't speak about whether there is a misunderstanding somewhere or not.

I don't believe in Law of Three, Karma, "what goes around, comes around" etc.
The world is not fair. You will be "shunned" for the mistakes of others, so you should believe that you can take it and know that other people's opinion of you or people who share any quality with you has nothing to do with you and your value and worth.

I really dislike the grouping attitude - I am not Wiccan, I'm a witch, and I'm also quite convinced that I'm a witch of "old blood". My witchhood has nothing to do with my religion. Nevertheless, NO-ONE BUT ME speaks for MY craft, MY beliefs, and MY blood, and I speak for no-one else's craft, beliefs and blood but my own. It's ME who represents ME and no-one else.

Being a fundamentalist means that you believe in doing things in ways you are taught... ( ) I'm sure the Frosts were taught the virgin thing in a way that made it very hard, if not impossible, to notice WHAT it actually was. "Brainwash", indoctrination, is one of the easiest things to do - it takes only HOURS to make you believe in things that are totally horrendous and against all sense, but it will take YEARS to "deprogram" a brainwashed person...  

I'm almost 40 and very strong person, I don't think I am gullible, but it took me almost 20 years to realize that pigeons don't explode by eating rice thrown at weddings!

I read a woman's "testimony" FOR incest and pedofilia - she said she was "initiated" to the family practice when she was 12 by her brother, and just a couple of years later she was having sex with all her siblings and both parents... and she thought it was all right and sensible and rational, even recommendable. She doesn't think she has taken any damage of this practice and is capable of having normal sexual relations with people, and she thinks the age limit should be cut down and that the society is way too hysteric when it comes to teenage sex.

Anita Diamant describes in her book "Red Tent" a practice when all the women of the family had a ceremony for the girl at her first period, when her "womb was opened" with a dildo-sort of thing. It didn't feel in any way wrong or discusting, on the contrary.
Later in the book another daughter of the family was denounced by the grandmother because she wasn't "opened". She wasn't even considered a woman, and her mother was bashed for allowing her daughter to wear the woman's veil without having gone through the ceremony. It too felt quite ok.

Remember that what might be self-evident and crystal clear to you is not to others... we all come from different background and have different ethical and moral standards. If you use your own standards to judge another person, you are being judgemental and intolerant... You really can use your own standards on yourself only. Not that there is something wrong in being judgemental and intolerant - there are things I am intolerant about and there are things I'm very judgemental about... and I think it's quite as it should be

Also, we are a combination of thousands of opinions, habits, practices, standards, attitudes etc. etc.

*There are people who condemn me to hell as an animal abuser because I eat meat. Hitler was a vegetarian, and thus a better person than I am according to these people.
*There are people who think taking pictures of your own kids naked - never mind the fact that you're a naturist - makes you a pedofile.
*Roald Dahl was a horrible person, but he was kids' best defender... there are few books written where kids' side is taken better than in Roald Dahl's books.
*Some people are certain of that Joanne Rowling will burn in hell simply because she wrote books where the hero was a witch.
*I'm sure you just as every other Pagan on earth have been met with fundamentalist Xians who will tell you that nothing you do is good and can ever be good, because you are not Xian.
*I have been told that homosexuality is an abomination and thus there is no gay on earth who COULD be kind and loving...

One quality doesn't make me good or bad. We are all sum of our qualities.

I hope some of this helps you feel better and give this man's opinion the value it's worth - none to you.

Hugs,
Ket

That makes sense.


After about a day to think about it (and re-look at the video) I do have a tendency to over-react.  Me own fault for that.  Thank you all for all the comments.  I'll try not to be so insane, promise.