I have been thinking lately about the Wiccan rede and the idea that if we cast spells that mess with the will of other people or that may or may not be harmful (but we aren't sure), and whether or not karma will truly rise up and smite us in the arse. �Sigh! �I'm honestly not sure exactly what I think, although I'm leaning toward the "I'm not a Wiccan, therefore I'm not subject to Wiccan laws" thing. �I understand the essence of the rede, that we can choose to do what we want to do with our lives, as long as it does not adversely effect others. �This is a good thought and it stands to reason that if we go out and do purposefully bad things to people that change how the path of their lives lead them (i.e. kidnap, rape, murder), those bad deeds should be punished (whether in this life or the next). �But, don't we do things every day that might "effect" the way another's path goes, without thinking? �Take the grocery line, for instance. �We know that the little old lady behind us in line has only one item while we have a shopping cart full of groceries, and she looks frail and tired, but, we're in a hurry and would rather not bother...so we don't. �I don't know, but that that isn't a worse issue than "wishing" for the "specific" lover. �Or, we know our friend is having some personal issues, but we mute the phone so we don't have to answer it. �Far worse than casting a binder on a harassing ex. �
I know we've had this discussion before on the boards here, but I'm too lazy to go and look for it...and besides...I want some fresh answers to help me along. �Does anyone have any further thoughts for and/or against the Wiccan rede? �I'm very curious. (And still semi-undecided, but leaning to the against side.)

More often than not, the posts here have a direct impact into how my life is playing out at the moment...
SM, I think there are many religions that teach us to treat other people with good intentions.  I wonder why they say that.  Did their knowledge come from somewhere deeper than we know?  The religion that I'm most familiar with, christianity, also says that.  Christ also had some other pagan things to say, but that's another post.
I've been 'keeping track' of moments when I know that I should have done something differently, or I've impacted someone's life negatively, and it has always come back to me,  worse than what I have done.  Or, I've impacted 2 people's lives, and there was always one to suffer.  You know the story, always one person gets hurt, no matter what you do.  And then there is that devious 'revenge' thing I sometimes do.  'Let them know how it feels....'  (I have a little guilt trip over that one).  
But sometimes there are things that I'm sure that we all do,  cutting someone off, without thinking or noticing, or doing things that hurt someone without realizing it.  Are we getting the end result of when there are irritating moments of people being rude to you?  This seems to be my major interest at the moment , and I've been doing reading on it.  
Ok, those were mostly questions, not answers, but overall I believe in 'harm ye none'.  I feel good about myself when I help other people, not expecting something in return, and from a science(?) perspective, I've noticed that I do get bad experiences when I do something bad. (Or is it just my reality as I perceive it?).  I'm still doing reading in this area.

I must say that I pretty much live by the rule "I can do anything I want to do as long it is not illegal or done with malicious intent".  I totally believe in karma. What goes around, comes around, and is always worse by the time it gets back around.  I also think that this applies to people that don't believe in karma ~ it still happens to them, they just don't recogonize it for what it is.  They just consider themselves to be plagued by "bad luck".  Everything that we do effects the people around us ~ some things may be positive, some not, it's just how it is.  I look at it kinda like this ..... should a family member need a liver transplant, I would not wish for a suitable donor to have a car accidentt and be brain dead so we get the donation ...... I would ask/wish/hope for a "miracle" that would save my family members life.  I know that sounds morbid and extreme, but I think it conveys my point.  As long as your minding your own business, and your not purposely hurting other people ..... I say go for it.
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I hope I didn't make myself sound like I was trying to make an excuse to do a bad thing.  What I mean, is that there really is a fine line between what we see as affecting another person negatively or positively.  If we do not believe what we are doing to be negative (even though another practitioner might see it as negative), do we continue?  Because there is no "school of thought" in the solitary world of magical practice, we therefore have to draw our own conclusion.  The kind of thing I'm talking about, for instance, might be, working a spell "for your child's own good" (within reason, of course, I'm not THAT creepy), or spells of binding, which some people believe falls into the "karmic backlash" category.

If you're working a spell, and doing it with good intentions and sending out good energy, then I can't see any reason why you would have bad energy coming back to you.  But your good intentions and good energy are in your reality.  If another practitioner is aware of your spell, sees it as bad intentions and bad energy, then wouldn't their energy counter balance your spell, even if the perception of bad intentions and bad energy be in their reality only?  I think that no matter what our good intentions and good energies may be, at least one other person will perceive it to be bad.  I don't think one person is right, or wrong, it is just within ourselves.  
I don't think binding is bad.  It is stopping a person from harming you any farther.  That is protecting yourself.  I only did a binding once.  I had to prepare myself to actually want this person to not come to harm himself.  Hard thing to do when he's hurting me.  In the end, he actually did do harm to himself, but I don't consider that my fault for protecting myself.  He did it to himself, so no bad karma should come back to me.  
As far as justice..I don't know.  Isn't that between the offender (in our perception), and the gods?  Who are we to judge people that have problems with their minds and do horrible things to other people?  Aren't these tormentors in fact being tormented themselves in their own minds?  Shouldn't our energies go to the victims and their families, instead of revenge?  Tormentors maybe don't always have demons to deal with, but who are we to ask for justice without knowing?  We could spend our energy to help these victims instead.
Is this post really confusing??

Just to make sure I understand the core intention of this post it is as follows:

You are asked peoples opinions are on the Rede as a whole and How it deals in the role of Karma, if at all, and if there are exceptions like in the case of preforming a banishing spell on someone that's doing you harm.

Is this right? please let me know before I go into a huge rant thing.

*hugs*

Bramble

Yes...or even someone you think MIGHT do you harm...or themselves...or whatever.  But not just binding...anything that deals with the "possibility" of working against another person's will...love spells, job spells (because even these can fall into that gray category), etc.  I'm sitting back waiting for the spittle to hit me because I know I've hit a sore spot with a lot of people.  I've just been thinking...

Bramble "Is this right? please let me know before I go into a huge rant thing. "
sort of like my post?  

Seamonster - No, you do not make yourself, nor do I believe, that you are trying to make an excuse to do a bad thing!!!  It sounds as though you are trying to do something positive for you and yours, but are worried that it may effect others negatively which in turn will come back around negatively to you ........ it will not.  
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Something like that Marigold. I just wanted to make sure I had the right idea before I started typing what might be a long post.

As far as my thoughts on the subject they are as follows and I apologize in advance because I will probably lose some people along the way


Everything, for the most part, falls into the "Grey" category.  The reason I say this is because the thought, even though it does hold some power in my mind,  is neither "Good"  nor  "Bad"  That is determined by what actions are taken after the thought has entered the person's mind.


When it comes to someone's personal safety or that of a child  regardless of the "consequences"  I say do everything you can to protect one's self or children this is NOT a "bad" thing and is just very basic survival instinct.

Now, as far as what someone does on a day to day bases that would get a little tricky.

If I give a homeless person on the street my last 2 dollars. I have done a "good" thing have I not?  What the person does with the money after I leave is none of my concern after I leave.  Correct?

This person could use that two dollars and go get a hot meal for the night or they could use it to fuel a drug habit that ends up killing them after I'm gone

Did I have a part in helping with either outcome?  Yes.  Did I make the person choose between a meal or drugs?  No

So as far as another person's actions affect another person's free will this is my conclusion:

Yes, a person can affect another person's free will but only for as long as they are around said person.  

Person A can influence Person B by giving them their thoughts on a matter (like this one for example). But Person B has the choice to either take their thoughts or not.  This does not mean that a thought or opinion does not play a factor in their decision to a certain point.  It just means the final outcome is up to Person B.


I hope my thoughts make sense. I may very well have just completely broken down what SM was asking by mistake but can't say I didn't try. Let me know what y'all think.

B.

SM, first let me say that I truely believe in Karma. That said, I think intent has a lot to do with rebounding karma. If no harm is your intent, then I don't believe any negative energies will be rebounded upon you. Some folks have a habit of over thinking things. I prefer to take most things at face value. I'd be lying if I said I never cast spells on anyone. However, those spells were based on protection of either myself or my family. For example, my daughter was having a difficult time at school with a particular girl. The foundation of that spell was aimed at not harming that girl, but rather letting her feel the same sting of her actions that she'd herself directed toward my daughter. Furthermore, the spell would be broken once that other girl felt remorse for her actions. Will this come back to bite me at some point? Who knows? The end result was that my daughter and this girl are now close friends. If this is my karmic payback for casting that spell, that's more than acceptable to me because both girls are now happily at peace with each other. But no harm was intended with this spell- it was intended to teach rather than punish. In the end though, you need to feel comfortable with what you send out- because it will eventually come back. If someone commits a crime against you, however, I'm not against facilitating that negative karma back to it's source as quickly as possible  

Blessings,

Draco

Thank you all very much for your input.  I think this discussion has "cemented" a few things in my mind and helped me to make an important decision.  

Hi guys! Here's my two-cents and two pages worth:

In my experience associating with people who practice magic, I have found they adopt the Wiccan rede as a means of escaping whatever flavor of rigid moral structure they had experienced in their previous belief system. Most practice a kind of Crowley-hedonism, "Do what feels good as long as it does no harm to others." When I began my personal studies, this sounded like a good idea, but the longer I am on the Path, the more I have come to disagree with this sentiment.

There are some obvious moral problems with the Wiccan rede�such as, how do I know what is harmful to others? I am an imperfect being with a limited capacity to understand the matrix of reality, and what I do understand is subject to my personal bias. How can I ethically cast any spell when it is possible for me to do harm at every level?

Also, what if suffering is a necessary part of personal cultivation? There are times when I have suffered heart-rendering emotions and pain, but I was able to change for the better as a result. Would this not mean that a greater good may potentially be derived from harm?

Does an ultimate Good exist? Is there a definitive baseline? There are some people that will say there is no such thing as an ultimate Good, and they have the right to this opinion. I tend to think that G-d-the Divine-the Universal Essence does exist and is the ultimate good. I believe this 1) because I understand the logic of Paschal�s Wager; 2) I don�t think life is worth living unless there is an ultimate purpose that is good. Paradoxically, it is my opinion that man is not the measure of all things, thus there is a greater moral authority than my perspective. �

Fundamentally, we are dealing with issues of morality and virtue, which are buzz words the neo-pagan and magic movements tend to avoid at all costs. This is probably because fundamentalists from the major religions have royally abused the meaning of the words. However, when you think of this logically, what is so negative about virtue and morality?

Definitions:
Virtue: the quality of doing what is right and avoiding what is wrong.
Mortality: concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct.

So, when you re-examine the rede, you find that it is less a model of morality and virtue, more a code of conduct. It�s a code of conduct for magic, but not really the perspective of morality for Wicca. Following a code of conduct without knowing why (in other words, lacking the knowledge of the virtue of the belief system), is an empty act. This is what we complain about with fundamentalists; they embrace the behavior without the spirit of the meaning. They do things without understanding or care for the purpose.

Magic/pure spell casting is a system of action. It does not provide a means of discerning good from bad. This is why systems of magic are usually practiced in accordance with a system of belief that has a code of morality, so you see magic show up in the context of Wicca, Gnosticism, Mystical Judaism, and Sufism to name a few.

What is unanimous in all of these belief systems is that there is an overarching power that is the ultimate good and reason for the Universe. Basically, there is a higher power than you, and this higher power is the ultimate virtue. Now, because most of these systems are from the major religions, there honestly is a lot of crap you have to skim through to try to interpret what is moral, and there is a lot of human interpretation making it open to error. While I do a great deal of research, I usually take a bit of a short cut when it comes to spell work.

When I cast a spell, I always state the intent that the Higher Power be the judge of whether my spell should succeed. It means that some of my spells fizzle out with no success, but I would rather that that cause harm for my benefit. This is the only way I know to avoid doing harm to another.

That being said, you could cast a spell to harm another without asking your Divine Power to guide you, you just have to be willing to accept every ounce of negativity that occurs as a result of your spell. In other words, if you are going to cast a harmful spell, be prepared for the consequences.

When I talk to people about the ethics of magic, I usually advise that they select a pre-existing wisdom tradition (usually a religion). The more difficult route is to sit and write out exactly how you interpret the Universe to be ordered, followed by what constitutes good and bad behavior according to that understanding. �Whatever you choose, stick with it.

I know this sounds like I am an anal-retentive magical moralist, but I consider what is Good to be a very important, possibly the most important, question one should seek to answer. I cannot claim that I know what the Ultimate Good is, but I try to trust that it will lead me in the proper direction when I ask.

I don�t know if this helps or makes sense, but this is the best I can do.

thanks

@ Stacey: It makes very good sense and is a well thought out response. When we choose magic as a means to an end, it is important to realize it will likely not end where and how we think it will.....
The Universe sometimes gives us credit for being smarter than we really are