Can you be Christian and Pagan?

Author: Sunfell

Can one be both a Pagan and a Christian? Are the paths mutually
exclusive, or can they be recombined in harmony? And what flavor of
Christianity is compatible with Paganism? Should this new growth be
encouraged? I hope to answer these and other questions in the course
of this writing.

The simple answer to this question is Yes and No. It really depends
on your background and approach to your spiritual beliefs. I count
two sorts of Christo-Pagans: those who are of mainline Christian
backgrounds and have 'gone Pagan', and wish to 'hedge their bets' by
incorporating Christian elements into their spiritual worship. These
are Christian Pagans. Then there are the Pagans who have completely
laid aside their Christian upbringing and are thoroughly Pagan, but
through careful study of Christian history, reclaim those elements of
Christianity that have been rejected by the Christian mainstreamers.
It is the latter group that I will be primarily addressing, and who I
call Pagan Christians.

I have spent many years researching religions of many sorts,
including Christianity. It has been almost an obsession with me, that
seeking to find the kernel of spirituality that animates faiths of
all sorts. In my studies, I have discovered that religions are like
facets of a vast gem, one that leads, with diligent study and deep
courage and commitment, to a place closer to the Great Unknowable
Deity. This is not "God" of the Bible- this is a Be-ing beyond our
comprehension. Its very Name speaks volumes, we simply do not have
the capability to discuss of understand it. Yet all cultures have
within them the religious impulse, because all humans have within
themselves a miniscule particle of this Great Mystery. And that
particle yearns to return to its origins. Thus, the function of
religion: an attempt to explain the unexplainable, and renew our ties
with GUD.

If you would have asked me if there could be such a path as Pagan
Christianity fifteen years ago, I probably would have shouted "No way
in hell!" and shown you the door. You see, I was going through the
anti-Christian phase that most Pagans go through on their way to
their path. This phase is necessary in many cases, because many
Pagans come from religiously repressive backgrounds, and active
rejection of their old religion is part of the act of cleansing the
negative influences off and making way for the positive ones. It's
almost the polar opposite of the 'born again' experience- but instead
of 'snapping' into a religious haze, the Pagan snaps out of the
confines of old dogma. Anger and resentment and harsh criticism are
the hallmarks of this 'unleashing' of the previous faith.

Unfortunately, many Pagans get stuck in this stage, and find great
glee in baiting zealots, causing controversy, demeaning other faiths
(even when they deserve it), debating True Believers and generally
rejecting anything remotely connected with Christianity. Sadly, this
is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, many Christian
faiths are overwhelmingly dogmatic, and some worship the Bible and
fear the devil above God. And many sects mistake the Messiah for God,
and worship him as such. And some have painted a picture of the
Christ so bizarre and blurry as to be totally incomprehensible.

A mainstream Christian would agree with my early opinion�their dogma
has no room for polythestic inclusion. They believe in God, and his
son Jesus (the) Christ, and only what is included in the Bible. There
is only one way to God, in their eyes. There is no room for
compromise, and not too long ago, anyone who tried to do so paid with
their lives. Fortunately such ultimate punishment for heresy
(choosing) is rare today, except for the self-proclaimed fanatics who
practice terroristic tactics.

So, there cannot really be Christian Pagans, but it is possible to be
a Pagan Christian. How can this be accomplished? The road back to the
integration of Christianity as another religion and the acceptance of
its place in the Eclectic Pagan pantheon, as well as the forgiveness
of the 'sins' of the various Christian sects must begin with Jesus
(the) Christ himself. We already know that "Christ" isn't really his
name, it's his title. It simply means "anointed" in Greek. In this
case, anointed by the Great Unknowable Deity Itself, and given an
envoy to bring an important message to mankind.

Yeah, yeah, you've heard it all before, he died for our sins and all
that. Did he? Was that his real message to us? "I will die for you"?
Or was his real purpose and life buried in a half-mythological
dogmatic scam that the ancient authorities decided would be the
foundation of the One True Church? Who was the real Christ, and what
message did the 'winners' in the dogmatic wars obscure for centuries?
Why were certain words of the Christ considered heretical?

Here is where traditional Christian dogma and research part ways, and
the road back to integration begins. If you accept the current
scriptural interpretation of the Christ's life and death as the only
true reading of the Christ's service, you will find yourself right
back in the Pauline trap of sin, repression, dogma, and fear. And
that is where the mainstream church authorities want you. They are,
after all, doing BibleGod's will, and in a few moments, you'll see
just what that is.

Buried deep in the Biblical exhortations of female submission,
dogmatic claims of One True Way, and misquotes put into the Christ's
mouth by later writers and editors of the Scriptures, is the real
message that the Christ was anointed to bring to us. And researchers
agree that these are the words of the Christ himself: "The Kingdom of
God is within you." (Luke 17:21)

This is echoed again in the Gospel of Thomas- part of the Nag Hammadi
codices:

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they
find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are
disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they
have reigned they will rest.]"
3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's)
kingdom is in the sky, ' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is in the sea, ' then the fish will precede
you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside
you.

Compare this to the Charge of the Star Goddess: "... for if that
which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it
without."

What? A Pagan and Christian truth in agreement? Yes! And a very basic
truth, too- one with which all the dogma in the world is defenseless.
God/dess is within you. You carry within yourself particles of the
Great Unknowable Deity Itself. This doesn't mean that you are GUD, it
simply means that you came from GUD, and the best parts of you are
the tiniest parts of It. Those tiny parts desperately want to return
to GUD, but are 'stuck' here. Many ancient stories say that mankind
was made in Its image, and must someday return to It; but most
current religions want you to forget that, and simply obey their
worldly authority. They have no interest in returning your GUD-bits
to their origin.

The genuine soul-felt knowledge that God/dess dwells within you is
the kernel of Gnostic (which means "to know") wisdom. (Agnostic, on
the other hand means to not know.) Christian Gnosticism had many
facets, some more ascetic and bizarre than others. But all Gnostic
thought and practice was thoroughly supressed and named heretical by
the faction of the church that 'won' the battle of the direction
Western Christianity would take. By 'winning' and destroying the many
Gnostic sects that abounded in Christendom in the first centuries of
its existence, the Roman Church set the stage for centuries of
repression. The Church authorities of all sects were doing the 'will
of God', and doing a great job. And while not exactly killing the
messenger- the Christ- the church authorities did an excellent job of
subverting his message to their ends.

But in 1945, a jar of first-century scrolls was found at Nag Hammadi,
and their impact, while not yet very widespread, has cracked the
fa�ade of dogmatic Christianity and revealed what may have been the
Christ's true mission and message. The Nag Hammadi codices contained
books that did not make it into the 'final cut' of the Bible. They
contained words and teachings purported to be by the Christ and the
Essenes that would understandably be seen as heretical, since they
aimed at the very heart of the dogma promoted by the Roman Church and
its many subsects and schisms.

The Gnostic Kernel is this: The Christ came to save us- not from our
sins, but from being perpetually recycled by a Demiurge who is
suspiciously like the God of the Bible- wrathful, egotistical,
unstable, and only interested in mankind for 'nutritional' purposes.
We are born, live, die, and our souls are eaten and shat out again to
run the course over and over. The layered heavens, angels, archangels
and demons, and continual recycling of souls are very similar to the
Wheel of Karma and other similar cosmologies of Buddhist and Hindu
belief. We are fated to go round and round for eternity as long as we
remain ignorant of our origin and the way back to it. Christ was sent
by the Great Unknowable Deity, who is beyond our comprehension, to
whisper the truth in our hearts and minds, and give us the 'gnosis'
that will return us to where we truly came from- GUD/dess Itself.

That is what we are 'saved' from- becoming 'God-fodder'. And that is
the knowledge that Christ came to share, but which was blurred beyond
comprehension and recognition by centuries of misinformation. Perhaps
the Church was right in calling Gnostic thought heresy- the very
word 'heretic' means 'school of thought' or 'to think for oneself;
able to choose', which is simply not allowed.

So, how can this fit into Pagan religious practice? By choosing to
integrate the 'Kingdom Within' you, you have freed yourself from the
chains of dogma that traditional Christianity still wants to wrap
around you. Sure, this makes you a real heretic, but in choosing
Paganism as your school of thought, you take back this Christian
epithet and turn it back into a virtue. You can think and choose for
yourself without any help. And you also free the Christ from the same
chains, and can welcome him back into your rites and onto your altar
and pantheon without feeling you have betrayed your core Pagan
beliefs. In essence, you have tossed out the bathwater, but kept
the 'baby'. And in understanding the Christ's real message, you have
learned the "Ultimate God-mode Cheater Code" to keep you from going
around the Wheel yet again. So if you do welcome the Christ back into
your pantheon, you are not betraying your Pagan roots, because in
truth, the Gnostic Christ is as much of an outsider to the
traditional Christians as any Pagan.

My exploration of Gnosticism was necessarily brief to accommodate the
format of this essay. Its philosophy is much deeper than what I can
get into here, but contains elements of mysticism, Hermetic,
Kabalistic and Alchemical beliefs. There are many sites and books
that give a deeper explanation of the richness of Gnostic thought. I
will list some of them for you- while I might be able to show you
this path, you will have to make your own way upon it.

Books:

The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels
Hidden Wisdom by Richard Smoley and Jay Kinney
"Gnosis" magazine- now out of print.
The Hermetica Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy

MMMMM...interesting.....

I have little argument with the philosophy of the Mythical Jesus the Nazarene, as from the little we know about him he was a social terrorist who was prepared to put his neck on the line for his principles, and he was trying to improve the lot of common folk who were sorely pressed by their own Judaic administration, which was in turn overseen by the Romans. Hard to find a lot of fault with that!

What I reject utterly is the bastardisation of the whole idea by the Roman-controlled "think tank": at Nicea  that gave rise to what is known today as "Christianity".
It has little to do with the "peace and love" message and everything to do with exploitation and political power, and the ruthless crushing of all opposition. These are very much Roman characteristics, who were truly the Barbarians of their age.
This is not to say that Christians are all bad people, I know many and most seem to be nice, even if a little insecure about their spiritual path (hence all the prosletyzing). I feel that they are good people in spite of their religion rather than because of it.
Christianity is about authority, power, fear, punishment and death, and it says much for the resilience of the human spirit that people survive relatively intact from such upbringings.
It is true that the official doctrine is a bit less cruel than it used to be, but that is the product of necessity for survival of the cult, rather than from any real wish to loosen the reins of power.

The Jesus myth was a pretty straight "steal" from past mythologies anyway. If you look at the myths relating to Osiris, Attis, Krishna, Horus, Mithra and Dioynius you will see the same story.
Born in similar circumstances of a virgin, a traveling teacher who performed many miracles, rode in a triumphal procession on an ass, turned water into wine, followers ate sacred meal that became the body of the God, was persecuted and executed, rose from the dead March 25th, identified with the ram and lamb, known as the "saviour" or "messiah"..... the list goes on.
Mithra is the closest in many ways, but the idea was not a new one even then, by many centuries.

So....
Can one be a pagan and hold christian values? Hell no!
Not if you hold the principles of Rome dear to you, and if you do not, can you really be called "christian"? I rather think not!
A religion that holds that a person like myself is an abomination destined for hell because of the way that God made me makes no sense. It makes no sense to many followers of that faith either, and I think that many follow it only because of the fear of hell, or the fear of alternative paths instilled in them over centuries of vicious propaganda, which, fortunately, seems to be on the wane of late (with a few notable exceptions).
The KKK claims to be a christian organisation does it it not? Flaming crosses and all. It uses the bible as justification for its horrors..... I will have no truck with such people, although even they are small beer compared to the Inquisition of Rome in the past.

However, the message of peace and goodwill is a good one, but not orginal to christians. It is held by a lot more Buddhists than it ever was by christians, and they PRACTICE it, rather than giving it lip service. There are many others too, the idea is certainly not an uncommon one.

There is good in all spiritual paths if you look for for it, but there are aspects of some, and christianity is one of the worst in this respect, that cause me to find it them abhorrent. So-called christianity has little or nothing to do with the ideas of its mythical "founder", and is probably the most synthetic religion ever devised. It did take a few years of discussion and bickering at Nicea in the fourth century CE to cobble it all together (not very well actually, as the inconsistencies and contradictions are legion!).

I can only hope that the neo-pagan movement does not succumb to the same malaise, although I fear that even at this very early stage, there are signs of it.
Orthodoxy will be the death of our movement if we allow the power-hungry to establish a dogma and the priesthood to go with it. No religion can be all things to all people, and it would be a sad day in the world if any one ever gained a monopoly. There are those in the world that would make it so if they could, as I am sure you are all aware.

All religions contain elements of others, it is a process of evolution, but if you want to be a pagan you have to reject the entire main thrust of the christian religions and their offshoots.
Incorporating any of the main ideas into what you do may satisfy something within you, and that is fine, but whatever you call yourself after doing that, it not what I believe that the word "pagan" means (now there's a subject in itself! Much discussed and seldom agreed upon!).

So there it is....I do not believe that you can hold christian principles (as I understand them) and be a pagan.
My opinion only of course, and I have tried to give some of the reasons.

The wonderful Lady Elaine takes a more pacific view than this militant old crone, and I love her for it.
My "line in the sand" has become a definite one because of my life experiences, and yours may be entirely different....
Opinions and world views will always differ (Gods...I hope so! Without diversity of opinion we would not learn from each other as we do!).

So what do y'all think about it?

Splan Bennath,
                           Kathryn

P.S. In case you think that I am totally hateful, one of my best friends is a practicing RC, and I love her to bits! She knows of my spiritual path and accepts it because it is quite benign, and she sees that. I must say, though, that she has had to reject some of the ideas of her church, and this has caused her much grief. With the help of her Parish priest (good chap) she has found some sort of balance, but I know that it is precarious at times....It shows in her inner angst that she cannot hide, try as she might.
Her path to walk I know.....

To hold on to two differing belief systems is very difficult, all historical research aside. (mainly because I'm really much too lazy to get into the origins of organized religion).  I, too, consider myself to be somewhat Paganistic without actually calling myself a Pagan.  (Mainly because I only do one God).  But I do practice other forms of "magic" and such that are frowned upon in my religion.  My religion, however, is not Christianity.  No, it's even worse than that...I am a Muslim. (By choice, not by birth--and I won't get into it now.)  To practice even the few "non-Muslim" things that I do would, in some places in the world, be fatal.  However, it is very difficult for me to hold on to an organized faith, ANY faith that severely restricts a person's PERSONAL belief, if that makes any sense.  I suppose you could say, I pick and choose what I CAN believe about several religions, my main belief system being that of Islam, very loosely, mind you.  Because of this, I am forced to hide what I do, and I live in America.  However, I'm perfectly happy hiding it, as it isn't something we go about shouting anyway.  I don't hide from society.  I hide from my husband who would definitely not understand.  He knows I read tarot and that is very strange for him, so I haven't come out anywhere else with him.  I would also be afraid that he would not recognize me as a Muslim, although my basic beliefs are the same as his.  
I just don't believe that some of the way the Koran (Qur'an) is interpreted is valid, as the language has changed in usage over the centuries, and modern MAN has used the language to HIS advantage!  Perhaps this comes from my own personal journey as a Christian before this.  Most of the bible simply doesn't make any sense unless it is a verse that was overlooked by the "editors".  I do know that Christ never claimed himself to be a deity.  That was done by his disciples after his death, according to the bible.  Muslims believe in Jesus, but not as a deity.  I believe in Jesus, and many others that have been called "Gods", and I believe them to be messengers.  (I also believe Akhenaten had a great hand in shaping religion as well, and if I were to seek a "God" outside of my own, he would probably be one...lol!)  
I'm sorry to elbow in on your conversation, but I guess I just wan ted to point out that it all depends on what a person can or cannot handle.  Like I said, I don't consider myself a Pagan, probably more of a "Muslim Witch"(clue), if such there be.  I've been a full-out pagan before, but I was much younger and just out of Christianity.  Some of what I saw scared the Sh** out of me at the time and sent me right back into the church.  I understand it all much better now, but since then, my life has taken so many different roads.  (I need to post on the new "Skeletons" thread...).  I'm not REALLY old, but I'm not young anymore, and I've seen a lot which has given me a wider perspective.  
I love all people, and I would hope that despite my beliefs, most of them could love me back.

Very well put Lady, and I do, more or less, get from whence you are coming.

I am a witch of some sort. I have elements of Wicca in what I do ('cos I like their ritual forms and ethics), but there are aspects of pure Gardnerian/Alexandrian Wicca with which I am not comfortable.
I do belong to a local Wiccan group that seems to have "adopted" me, and I feel very comfortable with their practice, to the extent that if they offer me initiation, I will take it gladly (you would love them...wonderful people!).
My ancestry is Kernewek (Cornish) going back many centuries, and the Old Craft of my native Celtish Pre-christian people is what rings a bell for me.
In that respect I, like you, take what I need from two or more different paths.

My argument was based on the basic ethic of christianity being diametrically opposed to everything for which the vast majority of pagan paths stand. Neo paganism is about freedom of choice with total responsibility for those choices, and no absolution from any act or thought. The christian concept of absolution frankly sickens me as the archetypical "cop out" from personal responsibility. That Idea has permeated the political and social philosophy of most western societies and is the source of the exponential growth of anti-social behaviour that we see on our streets every day.

As you so rightly say, deliberate misinterpretation of the Qur'an by some with a political agenda has brought all of Islam into great disrepute in the West. The silence of the top clergy is largely taken as tacit approval of the fundmentalists, and of course the likes of the Taleban in Afghanistan does nothing to improve the image of Islam in our part of the world. The Christians had their turn at this a century or three ago, and perpetrated acts of repression and cruelty that are almost beyond comprehension. Thank the gods that they did not have the dangerous technology that is extant today. If they had had such power, the world would be a very different, and much worse, place than it is now. They used the bible as their justification just as some used the Qur'an as justicification for likes of 9/11...... disgusting, regardless of who does it!

However, back to the point.....
The basic tenets of the monotheistic religions like Juadaism, Christianity and Islam cannot be reconciled with the necerssarily pantheistic/henotheistic paradigms used by the vast majority of pagans. The two are mutually exclusive; they cannot coexist in one mind.
Taking elements of doctrine which are not in conflict with the basic theological model of your base belief system is one thing, but truly combining any monotheistic faith with paganism is not possible.

You class yourself as a Moslem witch, and I can relate to that. I have a very dear friend that counts herself an Atheist witch! Her view is quite accurate if you take "atheist" to mean someone that does not believe in the monotheistic deity paradigm. We humans do love to put definite labels on everything when really we should not.
My own theology takes the henotheistic view (mostly.... there are nuances which might interest you on another thread than this one!) and that in itself leads to the posing of other interesting questions regarding creation and the interaction of deity or dieties with the physical realm.

So...where does that leave us? (or me at any rate!).
.....
Most neo-pagans will have elements of christian ethics in their day to day living because of the aforementioned ubiquity of that ethos in our politico/social structures in the West. That is, however, a quite different thing to trying to combine the theological models of the two paths.
As I said, there are nuances here that I would love to discuss with you, but it will be difficult on this medium. We need face to face meeting, a comfortable environment, lots of time and drinks of our choice and things to nibble! I think that i have some quite unique ideas that you would find interesting.
The source of these is the study on comparative religion that I have done, and some ideas triggered by Gary Zukav (yes...a christian....of sorts!).

All religions evolve, that is not in dispute, but for me to accept the basic theology of any of the established monotheistic paths would mean abandoning the very core of my pagan system. As the monotheistic paradigm proved not only ineffective but condemnatory of my state of being, and the pagan one has proven to be very efficacious and pagans welcoming of my whole self among them, the choice was really no choice at all.
Vilification or attempts to "straighten me out", or at best condescending tolerance on the one hand, compared with acceptance and celebration of who and what I am before the powers that be, made it a "no contest" situation.
The basic difference between judeo/christian/Islamic ethics and those of my pagan brothers and sisters of all varieties with whom I have had anything to do, made my path clear and the choices easy.

I cannot reconcile the two attitudes, and I truly believe that it is not possible for anyone to do so if they look at the issue objectively.

Lunch time, and I have got nothing done that I had planned for my morning (grin).....

I look forward to many others contributing to this thread, because it is a subject that many do not really think about with any depth, and the discourse is bound to be beneficial to all of us.

Bennath,

As I explained to a friend of mine not too long ago, the Bible is full of magickal references.  In fact, the last time I checked, the magickal, mystical antics of the Naz Himself form much of the plot.  Moreover, it was He who said, "Whatever I can do, you can do as well."  Good enough for me.

Blessings (at least as I understand the term).
Monk

Freke and Gandy also authored "The Jesus Mysteries: Was the original Jesus a Pagan God?", "Jesus and the Lost Goddess", and "The Laughing Jesus: Religious Lies and Gnostic Wisdom". I was extremely impressed with the first book. Its hard to exclaim that Jesus was all that different from Mithras, and Osiris, and Dionysus, when reading their histories and myths in concordance with those of Christ. Appreciate much of what Kathryn had to share on this subject as well.

"(I also believe Akhenaten had a great hand in shaping religion as well, and if I were to seek a "God" outside of my own, he would probably be one...lol!) "

As my husband recently pointed out, the authors of Christopaganism draw some interesting parallels between the mythical Moses and Akhenaten.

I know some awesome Xtian witches/pagans who have no troubles doing their thing, treading on no one's shoes.

Seems to me to be no different than spinning any two other paths together.

If you look at Christianity as a whole, the Christian celebrations, the rituals in the "church" and even Jesus as Deity, all of it is Pagan anyway.  These all have elements of ancient Paganism woven into their fabric.  The early church adopted many of the Pagan beliefs and rituals in order to convert them.  Basically, what happened was that in the process of trying to convert the Pagans, the Christians, unbeknownst to themselves converted to Paganism--and called it Christianity.  So now, we have separate groups of Pagans that hate each other--isn't that special?

Hell, SM, that can be said for humanity overall, ain't we grand!  

LOL!  Should be interesting what we learn before 2012...