Hello All,

I've been studying witchcraft for several years, though I haven't spent very much time actually practicing it.  This is partially because I just can't understand the element concept.  Earth, air, fire, and water make no sense at all (to me) as the four elements.  This may be due to my background in science and chemistry.  I've tried, but I can't see the world breaking down into these four elements.  Additionally, the concept of the four directions also makes no sense to me.  North and South makes sense, due to the earth's axis, but East and West don't even seem to exist.  China is simultaneously East and West of here, which makes no sense.

I was hoping someone might be able to shed some light on this for me, especially the situation with the elements.  I'm so interested in joining a coven and doing work with a group, but I can't participate in rituals because I don't understand/accept the element concept.

I did a little research on druidry at one point, and the book I read claimed that druids adhered to three elements rather than four.  These were the elements of Land, Sea, Sky.  For several reasons, this makes much more sense to me.   Do you think it would be appropriate to simply incorporate these into rituals with traditional wiccans?  Instead of calling earth, I could call land?  And then leave out the direction?  Or simply choose north or south, since those actually make sense to me?

I seriously considered just "going with the flow" and doing ritual work with four elements and the directions, but I just can't put my heart into it when it doesn't make sense to me.

Any insight would be great.
Thanks,

Raith

okay maybe i can offer some assistance in this since you are into science and chem. you sould look into alcemy there it brakes down the differnt elements into four base elements earth, air, fire, and water, all things come from them the differnt cemical reactions are a blending of the four elements. as four east and west it is easier as north and soulth are the gravitational axis of the planet so too would the anti axis of the planet be recognizedmagick is about balance just as the elmentts in chem there has to be a balance other wise depending on the chems you use smoke and fire.

ROFLMAO, not at you luv, but of your quandry.

If it don't feel right, then it ain't. If it feels right, then it is.

Simple huh?!

There are no defined ways of doing things, execpt by your own definition.

Land, sea, and sky. You got it covered by the sounds of it.

As far as the directions go, you are looking at things far too intensely. yes the far east is also the far west, depending on how far you are willing to travel.

Sometimes ya just got to keep things simple. A compass has the four directions, and yes, when you reach a certain point on the planet, east becomes west, and west becomes east, but your butt is the one moving, not the directions.

If you imagine walls that keep you from crossing the line, east will remain east, and west will remain west.

Stop moivng so much and thinking so hard, you are making things far more complex than you need to, it's that scientific brain at work.

If you take part in formal rituals, request that you be allowed to call either earth/Land/north, air/sky/east, or water/sea/west.

(We won't even get into the above and below concept then will we, LOL, not to mention spirit)

Fire figures alot into science, and the formation of the earth. (Not to mention that big ass ball of fire the keeps us warm!)

Long story, short version, do what your heart tells you feels right, cause then and only then will your magick suceed.

Another way to view this is that the elements are and can express as benevolent or destructive/explosive forces.

Earth: is the nourisher when bringing forth the grains and veggies and plants the animals to feed upon and thush nurture the circle of life.  Yet can tremble and destry cities and land can sink into the crevaces of her fury.

Air:  The cool breeze that eases the heat, yet the devistating tornados that destroy.

Water:  Cant survive without the fresh water to hydrate our bodies and to help the crops grow, but can flood and burry an area.

Fire:  Warms us and cooks our foods and helps us clear stagnant foliage.  But can char hundreds of acres in the matter of hours.

Giving and taking, the most powerful forces there are.  The creation of, and what sustains life, yet can destry it all in an instant.  The God and Goddess are the embodyments of these forces in Many traditions.  My path focuses on these forces as the dualites.  Not male/female per say, but the yin yang maybe.  The balance of the powers.

i geuss it also depends on the druids you know or read about i know the fire drake ritual i was invited too was verry cool and i did like it alot. fire was held high that night so the druids i knew did recognize fire. i am not a druid so i can't say for sure just from what i have experienced.
take it or leave it there is two more bits.

Hi Raith,

I've since given up the concept of elements in my practice, but I was never practicing a type of magic that really required them.  I find the concept of the separation and isolation of "elements" to be metaphysically and spiritualy limiting.  I think that the idea elements is a heuristic model used to put the overwhelming concepts of Creation and the Divine into a framework our minds can more easily grasp.

The concept of the separation of matter in the human mind is a flawed belief (here is where I go into a random detailed segement to explain stuff you probably know if you are from a scientific background).  According to physics, ALL matter is composed of tiny particles in constant motion.  When we touch something, "our" molecules actually combine with the object's molecules. When we perceive something as hard or solid, we are actually experiencing the density of the molecular makeup of the object, but we are still connected to it on a subatomic level when we touch, as no object is solid.

In terms of magic, basic physics provides us with some idea of how and why magic might work.  If I am molecularlly bonded with everything I touch, then I am pretty much connected (though distantly) to everything on this planet.  In this way, I am not an individual, but a part of a greater organism.  Currently, I would say that magic is the intentional manipulation of the energy that binds us into this great Divine organism.  I think that one's effectiveness with magic is related to one's ability to fully actualize the notion of the energy that binds us.

When I consider the elements, whatever number they may be, I am using the element ot better understand how particles and energy manifest in different ways and how they can be manipulated.  I find that the idea that pretty much everything in the universe is derived from the same source of matter, and that this matter can exist is so many different forms, to be amazing on both a mental and spiritual level.

Sometimes there just ain't no easy answer!  

Ok I may be totally clueless, but I have always considered the spirit, soul, and mind to be a fifth element. At least I include it in my rituals. I have always equate it with the pentacle. Each of the five points representing the five elements (earth, wind, fire, water, and spirit) and the center being you as the individual and the circle representing the Wheel.

Hey Everyone,

Thanks so much for the explanations.  This has really helped me find ways to connect my land, sea, sky idea with more traditional wiccan ideas.  And Stacey, your post was great.  I'm actually fascinated with physics and I use it fairly often to explain to friends how magic probably works.  I'm really amazed and thrilled at the fact that my molecules exchange with everything I touch.  It's so empowering to know that I'm created of moving particles rather than something solid and inflexible.

Thanks Again,

Raith